On interpreting social interaction

[firecat]

More noodlings inspired by http://jorm.livejournal.com/94477.html

It's true that social interactions can be smoothed if people follow the same rules.

It's also true that social interactions can be smoothed if people assume good will on the part of other people they're interacting with, rather than making up other kinds of stories about them, such as that they are trying to be insulting or superior.

(What I mean by making up stories: I think that sometimes people make assumptions about what other people intend, and sometimes the assumptions aren't entirely accurate, for one reason or another. Sometimes there's not enough information available because one doesn't know the person well enough or doesn't know everything about the specific situation that person is in at the moment. In those cases I think one has a choice about what assumptions one makes, and the choices can affect one's mood and behavior.)

For example, a person can assume that someone means well but came from another culture where the politeness rules differ. A person can educate themself about other cultures' politeness rules and then use that knowledge to refine the stories that they make up about other people's behavior.

I think it's usually easier for a person to change the stories they make up about other people than to change other people's behavior. So if a person is getting upset partly because they are making assumptions that someone else is being rude or arrogant or self-important, changing the story they're making up might help them feel less upset.

In other cases, the behavior might bother them even if they know there are possibly good-will or legitimate reasons for it. Changing the stories might not help with that.

And sometimes the evidence becomes overwhelming that a person does intend to be insulting or does feel superior, in which case assuming good will might be counterproductive.

More examples (the numbers are based on the numbers in jorm's original post):

1) When a person doesn't say "Thank you" to a compliment, they might come from a culture with different rules about compliments or might be uncomfortable about what they were complimented on. It might not be because they are feigning humility.

5) If a person corrects another person, they might come from a culture where correcting a person is a sign of respect for that person. Maybe they are not trying to show the person up up as stupid.

8) If a person shares their medical diagnosis, this might be an act of trust on their part, rather than an attempt to excuse themselves from following the rules. It might be part of an apology. Some people, when they apologize, start by explaining what led to their actions, and don't mean by the explanation that they should therefore be let off the hook for bad behavior.

9) If someone makes plans and doesn't show up, there might have been an emergency that prevented them from showing up. If someone is late, they might not be very good at estimating how much time it takes them to get somewhere.

15) If someone is sitting in the corner, maybe it's because they are disabled and that's where the host put a chair for them. Maybe it's because they are temporarily taking a break from the conversation. It's not necessarily because they think they're too important to make a social move.

18) If someone uses a calculator to figure the tip, maybe they find arithmetic difficult, or maybe they are from a culture that doesn't include tipping so they aren't used to it. It doesn't necessarily mean they are cheap.

20) If someone replies tersely to an electronic communication, they might be trying to show respect for another person's time (assuming that the person gets lots of e-mail and trying to minimize the amount of effort required to process the e-mail). They aren't necessarily being hostile.

Comments

[on-reserve.livejournal.com]

9) If someone makes plans and doesn't show up, there might have been an emergency that prevented them from showing up. If someone is late, they might not be very good at estimating how much time it takes them to get somewhere.

If someone does this routinely, to me, it means that they don't value my time and as such I will be far less likely to share my time with them in the future.

[on-reserve.livejournal.com]

18) If someone uses a calculator to figure the tip, maybe they find arithmetic difficult, or maybe they are from a culture that doesn't include tipping so they aren't used to it. It doesn't necessarily mean they are cheap.

Pardon me for sounding like an asshole, but calculating 10% is very easy - you move a decimal point. And then you double - and that's 20% - why does this need a calculator?

[innerdoggie.livejournal.com]

On #1: What are the cultures where you aren't supposed to say "thank you" to a compliment? I've heard of cultures (Caucasus? Middle East? Don't remember) where if you say "I like your [whatever]" that person thinks they now have to give it to you.

Ditto #5. I have not heard of that.

I agree with #9. Especially in Chicago where public transit can be iffy, and the roads may be jammed. Walking is the only reliable way, and sometimes even then sidewalks are closed and you have to re-route.

[innerdoggie.livejournal.com]

You might if you have to subtract the tax from the total mentally (some restaurants don't give you the pre-tax total).

[jenk]

Routinely is one thing. A one-off is another. When someone I'd invited for dinner showed up 2 hours late with a black eye, a torn shirt, mud in his hair, and rambling about getting mugged and interviewed by the police, I gave him a hug and asked if he wanted to wash up while I finished dinner, not a lecture on his lateness being unacceptably rude.

[jenk]

My mother used to ask me if 5 + 8 was 13. Or if 4 + 4 was 8. And she'd always ask what 10% or 15% was. She was always right, mind you, but she'd shake with fear if she tried to write in the check register or on the credit card slip without double-checking the math first.

Apparently she didn't do well in math classes as a kid, got switched repeatedly for bad grades, and continued to be freaked about it ever since.

(Over the years I gave her several electronic calculators, but no, she preferred me or Dad....)

[brooksmoses]

Because doubling requires carrying and addition? And for some people (like the one I know who has a very mild mathematics-related learning disability), that's difficult?

Also, because 20% is considered a particularly generous tip, and some people desire not to leave a particularly generous tip as their usual default, especially when they don't on average get above-average service?

[kightp.livejournal.com]

I don't consider 20% "particularly generous" any longer, given that inflation has an even bigger impact on low-paid service workers than on those of us with reasonably good incomes. And it's certainly easier for me to calculate.

[firecat]

http://www.dyscalculia.org/

[on-reserve.livejournal.com]

Your situation seems pretty exceptional. Do you really think that the OP on this list of rules would apply this rule to your circumstance? I think this is more of a repeat offender right up there with declining invitations will lead you to not be invited.

[firecat]

http://www.geocities.com/japanfaq/FAQ-Manners.html:
"Japanese often compliment eachother to promote good will, but it is polite to deny how well you speak Japanese, how nice you look, etc."

#5 is common in SF fannish subculture. I have trouble with it, myself.

[on-reserve.livejournal.com]

Also, because 20% is considered a particularly generous tip

Where? On Planet Cheapskate? Where I am 20% is considered a minimum for decent service.

[firecat]

I don't like it when people are routinely late, and often choose not to hang out with such people, but there are a few people in my life who have redeeming qualities that outweigh that, and with them I choose to work around the issue. I've spoken to some of these people at length about the issue, and they state that it is an estimating problem and not because they "don't value my time."

[on-reserve.livejournal.com]

Find - I suppose everyone has a "good reason" or enough excuses to get them through life. You honestly mean to tell me that in a small group/pair that *no one* will know how to take 10% and double that total? If that is true, I am ashamed of our educational system.

[firecat]

Seems like it really bothers you when people use a calculator to figure a tip. How come?

[on-reserve.livejournal.com]

they state that it is an estimating problem and not because they "don't value my time."

Then you know what? They need to WORK on that problem instead of just telling you that they have that problem. The need to take responsibility/accountability. I usually leave myself and extra 15-30 minutes. Often this means I end up waiting around but I am almost always on time. I buffer and miscalculations with extra time - because I value being on time for my friends. Once or twice it's an estimating problem - after that it means that they can't be bothered to take the time to estimate correctly and accurately.

[innerdoggie.livejournal.com]

OK! Come to think of it, on #1, it seems like there was an unwritten rule in my own culture that you were supposed to deny compliments. But there was another group in the culture that would lecture children soundly *not* to do this. It was confusing. The second group was more upscale and modern than the first.

#5. I've never encountered this as a sign of respect, just either mean put-downs, or innocent nerdish corrections. Usually the second.

[on-reserve.livejournal.com]

It really bothers me because it's petty and annoying. Discreetly is one thing ... under the table but I have seen people make a "big show" of it more than once. I feel like the OP is referring to people who make it obvious to the waiter that they are calculating to the penny.

It is poor manners.

Poor manners bother me.

People who use excuses as to why they are "unable" to adhere to decent manners thus skirt any personal responsibility annoy me.

[on-reserve.livejournal.com]

#5 And, this is going to sound judgmental -- but this is because SF fannish subculture is primarily made up of people with poor manners/social skills.

[karenkay.livejournal.com]

Yes, you always deny a compliment in Japanese.

In fact, when I was reading Stef's paragraph on this topic, the standard denial (ie, ie, soo zya nai) went through my head--which is weird because I haven't spoken Japanese for several years now. But it's that ingrained as a cultural norm.

[jenk]

Oh, I know it's an extreme example, but I couldn't resist using it :) What is probably more commonplace is to call if you have to work late, or get a flat tire, or what-have-you.

But actually, I think it did apply. The OP stated, "If you make plans with someone, and then must cancel, let them know." In this case, the friend did let me know, and after he washed up a bit and had some food we ended up rescheduling the original dinner-and-movie for another time - mainly because he was feeling totally dead and just wanted to crash.

[innerdoggie.livejournal.com]

I have some friends and some relatives who are always late, but I just try to structure my interactions where it won't matter. Like bring a book to read, leave if they never show up, don't rely on them to bring the cake to the birthday party, etc.

This works for me, but it wouldn't work in romantic love relationships. Then I'd go nutz!

[karenkay.livejournal.com]

I am totally impressed with your postings on this topic (these topics). Really nicely done!

[brooksmoses]

The 'Tip20!' organization, top google hit on "tipping standards", says that 15%-20% is standard.

CNN, quoting the Emily Post Institute, says 15% is normal, 20% is for "very good service", and one should never tip less than 10%.

Wikipedia quotes Fodors as saying, "At restaurants, a 15% tip is typical for waiters; up to 20% may be expected by some waiters at more expensive establishments."

These are in line with pretty much what I've always been taught. And on several occasions I've heard that the customary 17 or 18% added automatically for large parties was somewhat high because large parties are more difficult to deal with.

[jenk]

I've also had jobs, and known people who have jobs, that don't always end at a particular time*, so I learned to set expectations accordingly. "I'd love to have dinner, and I'm usually available at 7, but I wouldn't make a reservation for that time. If you're okay with a fuzzy schedule we could get together Wednesday, or we could set a firmer time on the weekend."

But yeah, a lot depends on the relationship.

*In tech support I couldn't leave until my last call was done, and if I got an hour call at 5:59, too bad. If I was closing the day care I couldn't leave until the last kid was picked up. Etc.