no subject

[firecat]

There is such a great conversation about redemption arcs in fiction happening here:
https://fictional-fans.dreamwidth.org/61893.html

My comment:

I like most things where someone is struggling with the moral implications of their past and future choices. But it has to be struggle. Not an on-off switch. And they have to get somewhere with the struggle. No coming back again and again to "but I did X! Woe is me!" (I'm looking at you, Thomas Covenant books.)

I like anything that gets me to think about what counts as unforgivable. Writers who can take an act I usually think is heinous, and make me struggle with my desire to forgive or overlook it because of what else is going on in the story. I sometimes like being defeated in this struggle. (Hello, the Kylo Ren redemption scene in The Rise of Skywalker. I hated everything about the character until that moment and then I loved him and was so frustrated with myself for it, but in a fun way. And HELLO LOKI.)

OTOH if the character or other characters in the story think something is unforgivable and I can't see it that way even if I squint, I get frustrated by the story. (Can't think of any examples right now.)

I don't believe in "bad person who is good deep down." I believe in people who are both bad and good. (I despise apologies that use the phrase "That's not who I am." Say "That's not the way I want to behave" or "That's not who I want to be." But if you did it, yeah, it is who you are. Among other things.)

At the moment, this comment is being brought to you mostly by the TV show Lucifer. With a cameo by Neroon from Babylon 5.

Comments

[alexcat]

I like redemption stories... always have. I like the very evil becoming the very good, the good and evil becoming good and the "I'm in it for the money" kind as well. I love white hats and good guys... never loved the villain that could not be redeemed.

I love arcs like Londo Mollari in Babylon 5. He went from buffoon to villain to a man who gave everything for the world he loved. The only thing about Londo is since his intentions were good, was he ever really a villain? I always thought him to be the real hero in B5 because, in the end, he sacrificed everything for his people. And as much as he cost them, he did save them.

[sabotabby]

That's an excellent discussion, though I haven't seen/read a lot of the ones people are talking about.

I am a sucker for redemption arcs. Neither Vader's nor Kylo's works for me. I think the distinction someone draws right at the beginning between Vader being redeemed and being saved is a critical one; I like it because it's not about Vader. Kylo Ren's redemption arc, though, I completely hated. It came out of the blue and didn't have that element of struggle, despite Adam Driver's best efforts to act where the scripts failed.

One of my favourites offhand is Clarissa Mao in The Expanse (both the book and show). Absolutely unforgivable, you would think, until she falls under the wing of Amos, who we meet for the first time after his redemption arc. (He's an utter sociopath who has seen the value in other people, so he seeks external moral compasses to help him determine what is ethical.) She has to work like hell to get right with the people that she's harmed, with herself, and with the universe. And she does. And I, the reader/viewer, ultimately forgive her, but so much goes into that story to make it work.

Helena in Orphan Black is another good one. And unlike Snape, where the more you uncover about his backstory, the less sympathy you feel, with Helena the more you know about her the more it's obvious why she became that way, and as soon as she has better choices, she learns to be better.

Al Swearengen in Deadwood. I'm not sure if his story is a true redemption arc, in that in many ways his behaviour doesn't shift so much as the show's POV does, but it's still a story of being dragged kicking and screaming towards human decency.

And of course B5. B5 had the best redemption arcs.

[firecat]

I do think Londo counts as partly villain because he doesn't know exactly where to point his good intentions most of the time and that causes serious consequences. But yes, he is one of the heroes of B5 as well.

[firecat]

You're right about Kylo Ren.

OMG Clarissa Mao. How did I forget The Expanse? YES. And I love Amos. I wouldn't say he's got a redemption arc going on but I find his moral issues really intriguing.

Haven't seen Deadwood. Sounds like I should check it out.

[sabotabby]

Deadwood is so good. Gritty Western but written in iambic pentameter with modern swearing. It starts out focused on the morally upright sheriff Bullock vs. the corrupt pimp Swearengen who really runs the town, but the problem is that Swearengen is played by Ian McShane and is by default the most interesting person to watch in any given scene. So he ends up basically teaming up with Bullock when they're faced with a Bigger Bad and becomes the protagonist from season 2 onward. He still does bad things but because you get more of his POV, those bad things are given more context and nuance and his arc is generally towards being a better person, even if there's the odd murder thrown in there now and again.

[sabotabby]

Oh, and I just realized the other big criteria I have (which I don't think anyone has mentioned on the thread).

It can't be redemption for love.

I've seen that done well a few times. Spike's redemption arc on Buffy comes to mind, although I don't like a lot of the places that went. I have slightly more tolerance if it's for gay love, just because you don't see that as much outside of fanfic. But most of the time it's gross.

I also have a low tolerance for redemption for family. I mentioned Helena, but I see that more as a redemption triggered by the fact that she had her entire worldview and moral framework yanked out from under her. She knew she was genetically linked to the women she was murdering; it took finding out that she wasn't special for her to see them as her sisters. Vader's story doesn't work for me as a redemption arc because he killed millions of strangers and saved his son, which most nasty people throughout history would do.

Basically the more creative the reason for the redemption arc, the better.

[firecat]

written in iambic pentameter with modern swearing

AND ethically complex protagonist? And it's on Amazon Prime! (*adds to list*)

[firecat]

Redemption for love is far more often a cheap way out than done well, and that makes me cringe.

I'm really worried about Lucifer going too far down that hole in the next however many seasons it has.

But done well? It works for me. (Cf. Neroon.)

[sabotabby]

It can absolutely work, but it's quite the Vader problem again. Most of us would do heroic things for people we love, and make exceptions to our moral code that might even last. It also tends to cheapen one party in the relationship, generally the woman (either, if she's a villain, her gender becomes her vulnerability, or if she reforms the villain, it's because she's just so good and pure *puke*).

Exceptions exist, many in B5.

[sabotabby]

It's hands-down some of the best writing I've seen on TV. And acting, and costuming, and cinematography, and music. But I love me some good dialogue and of any show ever, I'd say it has the best dialogue.

[firecat]

Absolutely agree with the gender-based issues you describe.

[adrian_turtle]

Londo is firmly established as a villain in the middle of the series. What he does to the Narn looked like attempted genocide. It was a great redemption arc because he had so much to redeem.

[kore]

You keep reminding me I need to see Orphan Black!

Does Delenn have a sort-of redemption arc in B5? We see her vote for vengeance when Dukhat dies, and then she kind of can't take it back, and then she's the one protecting and helping Sinclair, and JMS makes it literal when she takes back the sword of war from Awesome Guest Star Michael York.

[kore]

Hello, the Kylo Ren redemption scene in The Rise of Skywalker. I hated everything about the character until that moment and then I loved him and was so frustrated with myself for it

LOL THIS WAS ME. Deeply, deeply uninterested in Kylo Ren. Immediately charmed and intrigued by Ben Solo! He shoots like Han! Runs like Han! Shrugs like Han! He loves Rey enough to give up his life for her! .....bye, Ben, you were great for five minutes of awesome acting in which you had one word and I think it was "Ow."

[sabotabby]

You keep reminding me I need to see Orphan Black!

I think you'll love it. It's not perfect but it's close to.

Does Delenn have a sort-of redemption arc in B5?

I would argue yes, but it doesn't occur chronologically in the show.

[kore]

ironed_orchid kept telling me about it too! Argle.

....ooh, good point re Delenn.

[firecat]

you were great for five minutes of awesome acting in which you had one word and I think it was "Ow."

:D :D :D