The false advertising debate

[firecat]

The feminist blogs have been on all week about "false advertising," that is, whether it is "unfair" if a woman changes her appearance after marriage (e.g., by cutting her hair short, gaining weight, not losing weight after childbirth). One route into the discussion is here at Alas, a blog.

I'm sure it surprises no one that I don't subscribe to this notion. But that's not really what my post is about. What I began thinking about was this:

If one needs to advertise attractive traits to attract partners, and maintain them so as not to lose partners, then it would stand to reason that polyamorous people, many of whom are at least theoretically open to finding new partners, would be especially scrupulous about advertising and maintaining traits they think increase their attractiveness.

I'm not part of every community of polyamorous people, but the folks I am aware of don't seem to think very often in terms of "I have to maintain X, Y, and Z traits to keep my partners / attract new partners." I'm aware of people thinking in terms of how their traits interact with the traits of their partners, so that when there are problems, those specific problems get discussed; I'm not aware that "you've let your appearance go and I feel it's unfair" is a common problem. I'm aware of people thinking that they're responsible for continuing to pursue their interests and activities, so they don't become dependent on one person for all their social and intellectual needs. Maybe I'm wrong and poly folks (especially women?) are thinking a lot about maintaining their appearance in order to please their partners and attract additional partners, but if so I don't see it. I do see a lot of people concerned about their weight, but usually other reasons are given.

I'm sure that a lot of monogamous people also approach "coupled life" in one or both of the above ways, too.

Comments

[ailbhe]

I did once have a boyfriend who said he'd feel neglected if I "let myself go". He, mind you, had a beerbelly (from beer) and no stamina. Ho hum. I wasn't impressed at the time and I wouldn't be impressed now.

[nex0s.livejournal.com]

um, i don't keep fit for anyone's pleasure but my own. poly or not.

that smell is the smoke coming out of my ears.

n.

[nex0s.livejournal.com]

clarification: the "hate" is at the sentiment that you were writing about, not you or your opinion! :)

n.

[firecat]

Clarification appreciated but not necessary. :)

[kalmn.livejournal.com]

i used to be involved with someone who said that one of zir other partners was not as attracted to zir since zie had put on some weight. i personally found zir just as attractive at the higher weight as at the lower weight, especially since one of my worries before meeting zir in person (yes, an internet romance!) was "what if i don't find zir physically attractive?", and it wasn't particularly the physicality that got me in person, it was the part where zie was still the same person i fell for, even in person.

aw, now i'm all mushy. :)

(for those of you who know my internet romance history, please, no public speculation as to the identities of the above? email me if you're curious.)

[firecat]

[smile]

[jenk]

I'm aware of people thinking that they're responsible for continuing to pursue their interests and activities

Somewhat ... I tend to see this where a social group's interaction is based in RPGs, cons, or SCA.

I've also experienced it as my job satisfaction has changed. I used to think "Oh well, I could always quit tech, move to a cheaper place, and find a job where I get knee hugs walking in the door again." Needless to say, this option very directly affects husband's life - not to mention other partners!!

Maybe I'm wrong and poly folks (especially women?) are thinking a lot about maintaining their appearance in order to please their partners and attract additional partners, but if so I don't see it.

It's a factor in things like hair & clothes, but only a factor. And not a big part of my life.

[epi-lj.livejournal.com]

Hm. I did run my haircut past my partners and bring a group-approved photograph to the hairdresser for haircut matching. I also would never conceive of choosing to go bare-faced because I know at least one of my partners really *strongly* prefers me with the goatee.

It's not completely a "keeping up appearances for fear of losing them," thing, though. I tend to view it more as trying to do nice things for my partners.

[kalmn.livejournal.com]

*nod*

there are things i will do, and things i won't do. recreational underwear choices? yes, partners get a big vote. ;) the size of the ass that fits into that underwear? no vote.

[epi-lj.livejournal.com]

I will now do my best to not let this example distract me at work all day.

[miz-geek.livejournal.com]

Can you imagine how boring life would be if people never changed? Jeez, if I were the same person I was when I got married - in looks, interests, emotional maturity, cooking ability - well, I'm just glad that I've changed over the years. And so has my partner. Life is like that.

Maybe for some people, attraction is purely based on physical characteristics. If that's all there is to their relationships, I feel sorry for them, but I have trouble seeing how that's a really strong relationship to start with.

And sure, being in a relationship limits your choices somewhat - you have someone else's life and preferences to take into account. But that's the same in *any* kind of relationship. I can't bring home a new kitten tonight, not just because I need to discuss it with the spouse, but because I'd need to consider the effect on the other two cats who live here. It's all a big interrelated thing.

[kightp.livejournal.com]

I can't speak to the poly/mono factor, but the notion of thinking in terms of my parter's (or my own) "traits" just makes me blink.

I seem to fall in love with whole, entire people, not traits - although I appreciate it when people I love possess traits I find admirable, such as honesty, compassion and a good sense of humor. But physical traits - the ones the "fair advertising" discussion seems to be emphasizing - are ephemeral under the best of circumstances.

[ailbhe]

The only physical traits that really bug me are hygiene ones. I react almost as badly to BO as I do to perfumes.

[kightp.livejournal.com]

*nod* I think of those as behavior traits, though.

[ailbhe]

So is starving oneself, or spending hours at a gym doing painful things with arcane names ("crunch" - now, does that sound like something fun and healthy to you?) so I figure it goes in the same box.

[raphaela.livejournal.com]

My mother was 104lbs when my parents got married, and my father was very upfront that her looks were his main attraction. She gained nearly 100lbs when she got pregnant with me and never lost more than 40 of that at any given time. Because my father was looks-oriented, that was an issue for them. To that I say, "suck it, Dad." If you love someone at 104, you can love them at 404--you may not have the same sensual desires, but love is love.

Now then, my mother was always a very well kempt woman until about 1987, when she was laid off from work and spent the next 3 years wearing the same housecoat everyday, only washing her hair now and then, and pretty much just looking bedgraggled and--skanky. When she got dressed it was in wrinkled clothes, and I can't tell you the number of times she just put an outfit on over the housecoat. This caused serious issues between my parents and to that I say, "Good god, Mom! Take a bath!"

(She's clean now, btw, and she gets dressed. She had a mini-breakdown.)

I decided that I would do my best to present an attractive facade for my husband--not out of fear that he wouldn't love me, but out of respect for him. I love him. I think highly of him. I want to present a body to him that is attractive because he deserves it. I'm not sure I'm saying that right.

I want him to like looking at me, so I set a standard for myself. That's not to say I don't have days when I look bedraggled, but those are few and far between. I'm really lucky to be married to a man who thinks I'm pretty on the gross days, too. That must be where the blind love kicks in because I have serious gross out potential ;)

I think this probably sounds horribly backwards, but I don't mean it that way. I wouldn't be with someone who (and I have left a man who) was fixated on me looking a certain way. I just know what I think is pretty and I adore my husband, so I want to give him the pretty.

[firecat]

I find it interesting that you say "I just know what I think is pretty and I adore my husband, so I want to give him the pretty" because it doesn't mention whether your husband shares your aesthetic tastes. It has a different subtext than "My husband thinks X is pretty and I adore my husband so I want to give him the pretty."

[raphaela.livejournal.com]

I didn't say what "he thinks is pretty" because that sounded like I was trying to conform to a particular ideal of masculine desire and I'm not. My husband's aesthetic ideal is unattainable for me, so I'm working with what I've got. Like I said, he thinks I'm good looking when I roll out of bed in the morning, but I own a mirror, and am self-aware enough to recognize that I look a lot prettier when I have brushed my hair and put on flattering clothes. That's what I mean by giving him "the pretty"

My husband thinks Alyssa Milano is the hottest chick on the planet, followed closely by Gwyneth Paltrow. Unless I go in for a complete plastic surgery overhaul, there's no way I'm going to fit his perfect looking woman. I am trying to convince him that Drew Barrymore is much more his type. *cough*

[necturus.livejournal.com]

I want to present a body to him that is attractive because he deserves it.

The notion that one partner in a relationship deserves another's body strikes me as alien.

But maybe that's just because I'm feeling pretty alienated in general these days.

[raphaela.livejournal.com]

My first thought was, "Of course he deserves it!" But I don't think I am saying well what I mean.

My husband is an outstanding partner in every sense of the word. He works very hard to make me happy. I know that men are statistically very visual creatures. I know that my husband is a particularly visual person. He loves me, so he has a rose-colored glasses overview of my looks, but when I am dressed up to go out--facts being facts--his estimation of my looks skyrocket.

I really love the reaction I get on many levels. I love the validation. I love the power. I love the squidgy, adolescent "whee!" factor. I get warm fuzzies knowing that when he looks at me, he doesn't want to look at anyone else in the room.

Would I like it so well if he only thought I was attractive when dressed to the 9s? NO! (Been there, done that, and it only made me feel gross about myself.) But when he acts like me being dressed up is the cherry on the sundae, it's brilliant.

And because he treats me so well, I like giving him the cherries. Does that make better sense?

[necturus.livejournal.com]

Does that make better sense?

It does. I guess I've never had a relationship with anyone who felt that way.

[firecat]

Some of what raphaela is talking about feels kind of alien to me too. The notion of doing something nice for my partner because I love him or her (which is how I interpret "because he deserves it") isn't alien. The phrase "present a body to him" feels alien to me, though. When I dress up on purpose to please my partner, I don't think of myself as "presenting a body."

I'm saying this as an observation and not a criticism. This is fine when it's consensual between the people involved. It's wrong when it becomes expected or a source of unhappiness, either at a personal level or at a societal level.

[cjsmith.livejournal.com]

I wonder if polyamorous people find that they are no longer tied to keeping (outdated?) traits to keep a partner, when they can be whomever they want to be and probably find new partners.

[redbird]

That seems possible but non-intuitive, for two reasons. The first is that being poly doesn't mean I don't want to keep a partner: I want to keep three partners. I don't think a change in my appearance would chance losing any of them, but that's a separate matter, specific to the particular partners I have and their observed ways of being.

The second is that yes, poly people can have more partners--but I'm fairly sure that we're finding them in a smaller pool. I think that whether a person can be whoever they want and still find partners has more to do with who they want to be--and that's attributes like honesty, generosity, thrift, energy levels, activities they enjoy at least as much as it's anything to do with physical appearance--than with whether they're poly.

[elainegrey.livejournal.com]

I am all about the change and growth and exploring.

I will whine when Christine's hair gets chopped^h^h^h^h^h^h^h^h cut into a new style, but i wouldn't want her to listen to that!

What the hell is "fair" anyhow? If fairness is what goes on in a "happy marriage" this must be why i never wanted one. Feh, feh, yech, *feminists* were discussing this?

(Pain talking, sorry. i can't help myself.)

[firecat]

The feminist blogs have taught me in a pretty visceral way that not all feminists have the same values that I have and even that I consider feminist, but I'll also add that probably not everyone commenting would identify as a feminist.

[rowanf.livejournal.com]

Fascinating blog you link to. I hadn't heard this "debate". *sigh* I never "baited a trap" looking for a partner. They pretty much knew/know what they're getting upfront. No complaints. And no shortage of partners either (just a shortage of time!) *happy grin*

[elynne.livejournal.com]

Ditto, and ditto. ;)

[cheshyre]

I'm currently reading Sex with kings, a history of royal mistresses.

One of the early chapters discusses traits that longterm mistresses have in common. It's not beauty or sexual prowess, and not precisely wit or intelligence either.

Mostly it seems to be an ability to read the king's moods and provide a comfort to him. Sex when he's horny, but also peptalks when he's down, entertainment when he's bored, an ear when he wants to talk, etcetera.
Not an easy job to be always "on" and reactive, but it's a feature not so dependent upon ephemeral standards. [Yes, I saw the original posts about false advertising; haven't been following the blogs to see what recent discussion they inspired.]

[firecat]

That makes a great deal of sense. I wonder how many people who get upset with their partners for "letting themselves go" are really upset that their partners are developing other interests and are no longer so attentive to their moods and comforts.

[xiphias.livejournal.com]

One of the main reasons I go to the gym is to try to make myself attractive to potential partners. I don't have any potential partners in mind, and my wife likes me the way I am -- but she's asexual, so I don't know if that counts. She'd like me to lose weight simply because I'd snore less then, but since I got the night mouthpiece thing that keeps my airway open (I don't actually need a CPAP machine yet), that seems to have solved that, so it's not a problem.

She does want me to go to the gym because I'm happier and more effective when I exercise -- but, for me, changing the way I look is a major part of it. Not for her, though.

[redbird]

That my partners like my muscular appearance--and muscles show less on women--is a minor bonus. It's a good thing, but not a major one. It wouldn't motivate me by itself, and I'd exercise without it.

[selki.livejournal.com]

She'd like me to lose weight simply because I'd snore less then, but since I got the night mouthpiece thing that keeps my airway open (I don't actually need a CPAP machine yet), that seems to have solved that, so it's not a problem.

Would you mind explaining more about the mouthpiece thing, or drop a link?

[xiphias.livejournal.com]

I don't know if there IS a link, but the technician who runs the sleep lab makes these things.

Um, lesse.

So, you know those dental things that you bite into and they make an impression of your teeth? It's like two of those, one for your top teeth and one for your bottom teeth. And they're connected, so, when you wear this thing, your top teeth are in the top teeth impressions, and your bottom teeth are in the bottom teeth impressions. And, because the mouthpiece is connected, your jaw kind of is held forward, so it can't fall backward, if that makes sense. Like, you know how your jaw can jut out, and pull back? With this in, it can't. It's got this kind of groove-and-peg-slidey-kinda-connector, so your jav can slide side to side a little, which makes it more comfortable, but it can't fall backwards.

For me, and for maybe half the folks who try it out, not having the jaw fall backward keeps my airway open, and I don't snore. Or at least, I don't snore much. And the apnea is better.

[lizw.livejournal.com]

I think the phrase "false advertising" says it all. I wasn't selling anything when I met my spouses, so nor was I advertising. I will be held accountable for the promises I expressly made them and for generally behaving like a decent person, but that is all.

[firecat]

I [heart] this way of putting it.

[cassidyrose.livejournal.com]

I think the phrase "false advertising" says it all. I wasn't selling anything when I met my spouses, so nor was I advertising.

This is perfect and so, so ture. I'm not for sale and I wasn't "selling" myself to any of my partners. There was nothing to advertise.

[pachamama.livejournal.com]

Mono folk know that their one partner is the only sexual outlet they will ever have, therefore maintaining the physical attractiveness is naturally of greater importance. Polyfolk don't have this problem.

[beaq.livejournal.com]

Except insofar as they may continue to feel the need to be attractive in order to have *any* sexual outlet. They don't have a captive audience, after all.

[dandelion-diva.livejournal.com]

I like to think of myself as an articulate person, but my inital reaction to the idea that changing in a relationship means that one was originally lying was "Dear *ghods* what fucking stupid idea!".

I expect to spend the rest of my life with darthgeek. The women in my family get kind of jowly and wrinkly in our fifties (and after. Because it would be weird any other way.*grin*). Since I have an aversion to cosmetic surgery, won't let people stick needles in my face and forget most "moisturizing regimes" after about a week, that's gonna happen to me too. Since I didn't tell him about this before we got married, is that gonna be considered false advertising too? Jeeze.

I make sure I shower and wash my hair as often as possible, so that I'm not stinky, and though I've been threatening for years to shave my head (the threat is to make my hair behave, not to Jeff)(not that it works mind you...), I probably won't 'cause we've discussed the fact that I would look just too weird and he seems to really not like the idea, that's pretty much as far as I'd go. If I want to do something wrt my apperence, I do it. Same for him.

People not growing and changing in relationships is kind of horrifying. I think that one of the reasons for relationships is to help us grow and change. And if those changes are physical, so be it.

But then, people who think five pounds means the difference between loving someone and not loving someone perplex me. And they're certainly nobody I'd want in my corner when the going gets tough. Hell, they're nobody I'd want in my corner when I've run out of mustard.

Gessi, not opinionated at alllllll. :)

[firecat]

I like your opinions :)

[baratron.livejournal.com]

Speaking for myself, I got validation that I was an attractive person by the time I was onto my fourth partner (ever, not simultaneous!). All the people I've been involved with since have simply confirmed that.

Does polyamory make me less insecure? I think so. But simply being coupled to a single, sane, loving person would be enough. When I have my "fat and ugly" days and a partner hugs me and tells me how good I'm looking, it makes me realise that my view of myself may not always be accurate. My partners' views may be equally biased in the opposite direction, but somewhere in the middle lies the truth.

Another important factor is that the things that make my partners attractive to me are, on the whole, internal. Being intelligent and interesting, readers, geeks and (mental) explorers - these are the things I find attractive. I grow to like physical traits on the people because I get used to them. My long-term partner is long-haired and beardy, and so I now find long-haired and beardy attractive because any geekish guy with that combination reminds me of Richard. Especially if he is kind, affectionate and not very stereotypically masculine. (Richard gets mistaken for a woman fairly often despite his beard. I find this... amusing.)

So I suppose the answer to this whole thing is "it depends". I would absolutely hate it if one of my partners lost all interest in intellectual pursuits - in reading, making things or music, and settled instead for watching daytime tv and sport - and this was a conscious choice, not a symptom depression. I would also hate it if they stopped washing or taking care of themselves properly, and when I am depressed and forget to look after myself, I like my chosen family to remind me that washing is more pleasant to other people and may also make me feel better. But their weight and appearance matters to me only as an indicator of health - where sudden weight gain or loss or change in complexion could be signifying some illness.

[porcinea.livejournal.com]

My boy met a workaholic geek, and wound up with a stay-at-home mom. Who cares about mopping. Eep. Now that was false advertising, if there could be said to be such a thing.

[firecat]

I think that was pretty much the situation with my parents, who met at work, and my mom stopped working for pay after they got married. They were both medicine geeks.

OTOH, I'm pretty sure they planned it that way on purpose.