Fat Etiquette Tips For The Non Fat

[firecat]

Via ona_tangent, Fat Girl Break Down's "Fat Etiquette Tips For The Non Fat" is an interesting list of ways anyone can be an ally to fat people - mostly suggestions for keeping in mind the ways a fat person might find some environments too small/crowded. It's written in a direct, demanding style that I don't tend to use, but otherwise I agree with a lot of what it says.

Fat Girl Break Down also has a LiveJournal at fgbd. Don't click the website link on their userinfo, though; it's been eaten by a porn site.

I find these particularly interesting (emphasis in the original):

When going to a restaurant with a fat person, allow the fat person to choose where you are seated. Consider the fact that your fat pal may not fit into a booth, and may not feel comfortable sitting at a table with their back facing the rest of the restaurant.

(I personally don't mind sitting with my back to the rest of the restaurant. But when sitting at a four-person table against a wall, I like to sit on the outside, not the inside where I might crowd the person next to me or where other people would have to get up to let me out if I need to go to the bathroom.)

Don't make fat jokes around fat people. Don't make fat jokes PERIOD. If someone makes a fat joke around you, tell them they are being immature and stupid.

I personally don't particularly want people to be called immature and stupid; I'd rather they were just educated that fat jokes - the kind that rely on scorn, disgust, humiliation, or othering - are not OK. But I especially appreciate the part about speaking up against fat bigotry in other people. I don't think people are obligated to do this, but I appreciate it because I'm not good at it. Actually, I'll add that I appreciate the most people who speak up against fat bigotry when I am not around. If I'm around I feel like they're pointing at me and saying "Don't do it because can't you see this fat person is here?" I'd rather that such jokes were considered questionable even in entirely non fat company.

Don't say you're fat if you aren't fat. Don't whine to your fat friends about your gut that's barely visible. Don't try to compare being teased for being "too skinny" to the constant degradation and oppression of fatfolk. If you don't read as "fat" to people who see you, don't call yourself "fat." Body dysphoria and actual size are two different things.

I don't personally mind comparisons between the harrassment that fat women receive and the harrassment that non fat women receive (although I prefer it when the comparison isn't made with the goal of saying "I'm more harrassed than you"). But I REALLY like the statement "Body dysphoria and actual size are two different things." I'll just go on the record here as saying that a bunch of times when a thin woman has talked to me about how fat she is, I've wanted to say something like that. I generally haven't because it would be rude, but I've wanted to.

(Note: I don't recall anyone on my flist saying something like this to me, so I'm not indirectly communicating to anyone here. And writing it in your journal isn't the same as saying it to me.)

I don't mean that only people my size "get" to call ourselves fat, but when people who look pretty small to me talk about feeling so fat, I feel like a Nameless Thing ("if they are fat, and my body is so much bigger than theirs, then there is no name for what I am").

***

While I'm on the subject of etiquette - this is part fat etiquette, because it applies to some other fat people, but mostly Stef etiquette - I appreciate it when people keep in mind that I usually don't comfortably walk fast. I can walk several miles, but it's at a pace that's slower than what seems to be a "normal" pace. When I'm walking with other people, I appreciate it if at least one person walks at my pace rather than everyone's going on ahead and leaving me alone.

I also appreciate it when walking with one person if they match my pace rather than walking a half step ahead of me, which I experience as pressure to walk faster - and then I do, and it's painful.

Note that I almost never ask for these things at the time. Which is a fault in me, but it's not one I am planning to work on changing any time soon.

Comments

Meh.

[red-frog.livejournal.com]

Some of that article is basic etiquette, and some of it is... I don't know what, but it doesn't sit well. The fattest person should always ride shotgun? There are lots of reasons why someone might not be comfortable sitting in the back seat--great height and disability are two others. Or two fat people might be present. Let's face it--no one really likes being squished and someone is going to be.

I don't particularly care to sit with my back to a room either, and prefer the outside of the booth for the same reason you do.

As for your comment, that's basic walking etiquette. I'm tall, and I walk more quickly than most people like to. For those who can't keep up--and this included my tall reasonably fit husband--I walk more slowly. If I ever am walking with you, I'm not going to take it amiss if you tell me to slow down. I spent so many years with my feet as sole or only form of transportation that almost everybody walks more slowly than I do. :)

Re: Meh.

[cjsmith.livejournal.com]

Good points all.

A side note on the walking etiquette: I used to walk very fast, before my current foot trouble, and walking slowly was something I could do only as long as I was thinking about it. As soon as I started thinking about something else, like the conversation, I would subconsciously start to inch up my pace to my natural speed. I didn't mind being asked to slow down -- I appreciated the reminder. Just a datapoint. Now, of course, I'm often the slowest one in a group. :)

Re: Fat Etiquette Tips For The Non Fat

[pir-anha.livejournal.com]

i really want to argue with the "don't say you're fat unless you are" bit, even aside from the "i am more of a victim than you" attitude that seems to me to lurk there -- who's gonna be the arbiter of that? are we gonna have a weigh-in? doesn't it largely depend on one's regular circles as to whether one is viewed as fat by others? just reading the crap i've read over the years about, say, actresses where the label "fat" is applied to women whose gut was indeed barely visible. i am not surprised that a lot of people have bought into the general idea that every wee bit of "extra" weight is "fat", and i am not gonna play this game with them; it goes against my grain to argue with people's self-definition. besides, what is this gonna gain me exactly?

Re: Fat Etiquette Tips For The Non Fat

[wordweaverlynn.livejournal.com]

Yes--remember the fuss about Kate Winslet, who was (gasp) a size 8?

walking faster

[pir-anha.livejournal.com]

oh, forgot -- i consider that walking bit basic etiquette no matter whether somebody is fat or not; one might be a slow walker for all sorts of reasons, and i hate hate hate people who rush ahead. makes me feel like i am their dog. if i ever do that with you and don't notice, do tell me!

Re: walking faster

[beaq.livejournal.com]

Yeh.

Re: walking faster

[bcholmes.livejournal.com]

I'm irresistably moved to quote a line that wild_irises used at Wiscon, which is this: "a lot of people talk about manners as if they were a part of concensus reality, and I know from personal experience that they are not."

More and more, I think that phrases like "basic etiquette" and "manners" are a tool that people use to say, "I don't like what you're doing and that makes you inferior."

Re: walking faster

[therealjae.livejournal.com]

Ooh. I like that quote.

-J

Re: walking faster

[pir-anha.livejournal.com]

*raises eyebrows*. spiffy snipe.

Re: walking faster

[firecat]

I've seen such phrases used that way, yeah. And that's not polite, dammit! :-) (Seriously, every modern etiquette advice book or column I've read stresses that laying guilt trips on other people or behaving as if they are inferior isn't proper.)

When I use "etiquette," I'm likely to mean "A model of how to behave toward X set of people that I believe X is likely to find considerate and that I find myself capable of doing." Smaller subsets of X inherit the default etiquette for the larger set X, but the defaults can be overridden. When talking about an individual, etiquette would be more or less in the same range as "that person's needs / wants / preferences."

My model isn't likely to be exactly the same as other people's. And the map isn't the territory.

I think I'm not taking the original article's use of "etiquette" as synonymous with "rule" or with "You should know this, you rube" because of the way I assume that defaults can be overridden.

Re: walking faster

[epi-lj.livejournal.com]

IME, most dogs rush ahead and their owners trail behind, rather than vice versa.

I walk ahead of people often without noticing, but do try to slow down when I notice. I do understand how frustrating it can be to be constantly trying to catch up, both from trips with my Dad as a kid and from cycling with faster riders. However, it's worth noting that in some cases, walking slower or walking as slow as is required may be physically painful or cause body issues for the faster walker, so it's not a clear case of "needs trump preferences". There are many cases where I've spent time walking with people who walk *MUCH* slower than I, and slowed down to accomodate them only to find that after a little while I could not walk because of the pain and had back problems for days thereafter.

It's also worth noting that the person is not making you feel like you're their dog. Your own perception of the situation is making you feel like you're their dog. When people cycle faster than I do and I get upset by that, it's my own competetiveness, perception of my ability level and a host of other things that are causing my issues, not that they ride fast. Often the answer is not that they need to slow down for me, but that I have to learn to let go of my anger about it or my need to compete or keep up and just let them go on ahead, perhaps setting a meeting place or something like that. In some circumstances, of course, this doesn't work out, but in situations where it does, it's nice if everybody accomodates everybody rather than one person accomodating another without that going both ways.

Re: walking faster

[pir-anha.livejournal.com]

It's also worth noting that the person is not making you feel like you're their dog.

it might've been worth noting had i actually said that. what i did in fact say was "makes me feel"; the referent being the act of walking faster than i, not the person. i am well aware that those are my own feelings. and no, it's not about competition at all.

[pure-agnostic.livejournal.com]

(Before I start, I oughta preface my comment by saying that I am not fat, and was not aware of most of the etiquette guidelines suggested by the author.)

I appreciate that the author was trying to educate people about etiquette towards fat people, and issues that fat people face. However, before I read Stef's commentary on it, I was wondering if some of the article was the author's own personal etiquette. And may not apply to other fat people. (Thanks, Stef for confirming my hunch.)

Some of the suggested etiquette may not apply in all situations. For example, when I am driving several others, the person I often want riding "shotgun" is the person who can navigate. Somebody who can give me directions. And that has nothing to do with body weight.

Another example is when being seated in a restaurant. As a parent of a small child, I need to have a seat near my daughter's high chair or booster-seat. Other than being near my daughter, my other rule is that I don't want my back to foot-traffic. (It's not fun putting a fork into my mouth and then get bumped by somebody walking past me.)


I'm male, but I've got a hunch that the concern about unfat people calling themselves fat is mostly about how mainstream culture treats women. It's much more okay for a man to be a bit pudgy or have a pot-belly than for a woman to even show a little extra gut. Hence, more otherwise normal-weight women complain about being fat than normal-weight men.

[saluqi.livejournal.com]

Restaurants and car journeys are tricky all around I think.

I generally do a quick calculate that includes size (including height), gender (particularly if it's a work situation), kids, various health and disability requirements and then just try and not get in the way myself.

The one thing she mentioned that I had previously missed was bedclothes, I have squirreled that bit of info away for future reference.

[usqueba.livejournal.com]

Just a comment:

I'm a weird pear shape. I carry my weight around my middle - belly, hips/thighs/butt. Below my thighs, my legs are "normal". My arms are slender. When I'm wearing certain clothes, I don't really look overweight, but in certain parts of my body, I AM. ::shrug::

[ona-tangent.livejournal.com]

I'm re-realizing that most people don't recognize or understand the deep humiliation that comes from being unable to fit in the chair against the wall or having your belly sit on the booth table during a business meeting or the dirty looks you get when you can't close the car door because the back seat is designed for small people/children and your hips won't fit in there with two other people.

[firecat]

Yes, I think most people don't understand it, not having experienced it.

[red-frog.livejournal.com]

Is this list of etiquette suggestions about physical comfort or emotional comfort, then? In the case of conflicting comforts of either type, which trumps?

[firecat]

I didn't write the list so I don't know what the intent of the author is, but I would hope that suggestions of this nature would be taken as information about how someone with different wants, both physical and emotional, might appreciate their wants' being considered.

I don't see why it has to be about one thing "trumping" another thing.

[red-frog.livejournal.com]

It was specifically about the needs of someone fat, instead of someone very tall, or someone with brain damage or missing limbs. This wasn't about generally accomodating those with needs other than our own.

Sometimes it's about trumping if two different people's comfort levels conflict. There are a limited number of front seats. If the contenders are someone fat, someone 6'6", and someone in a wheelchair, who gets the front seat of the small car? What if there are two people who are roughly the same size? Someone is going to be uncomfortable.

I don't think there's a blanket way to handle accomodating other people's needs. My niece has one leg. She prefers walking from the parking lot to the door to being dropped off. Someone else with the same handicap might prefer to be dropped off. (My nephew with no legs also prefers to walk, although some distances are too long for him.) This essay might have been a lot shorter if it was about ways to diplomatically ask people what they prefer instead of dictating general rules.

[firecat]

I don't think there's a blanket way to handle accomodating other people's needs.

Of course not. (The original article mentioned this a number of times in fact.) That's why it's not about "trumping," IMO. If there are conflicting needs, negotiate.

What's also true, to my mind, is that it can be helpful to have a general list of things that people with X characteristic might want, because then one might have a starting point about what issues might need to be negotiated. Of course some of them won't want those things and one shouldn't assume without checking.

fat == humiliating

[pir-anha.livejournal.com]

i experience it, but i don't feel deep humiliation, and i might lack an intuitive understanding of that particular aspect. i feel discomfited, and annoyed when i don't fit well into a booth or a chair, but i don't tend to turn that on myself; i am more likely to grumble about the lousy design of the seating. we'all know that a large percentage of people in north america are fat, so why build for skinny people only? cheap bastards.

Re: fat == humiliating

[firecat]

I mostly feel only discomfited and annoyed at poor design.

Sometimes I feel stronger humiliation, especially over the issue of being less mobile than other folks. (Slower, less able to climb things, etc.) That's something which goes back to my childhood - when I wasn't all THAT fat, but I wasn't very fast and had poor upper body strength, so my limitations ended up looking to others as if they were caused by my size.

There's some fairly intense fear attached to this, which I attribute to an atavistic "I don't fit in with the herd, I'm going to get eaten" instinct.

I also feel really uncomfortable with designs that cause me to spill into someone else's space. Even though I know it's not my fault that I don't fit into one airplane seat, I know the person next to me, if they are a stranger, may not be so enlightened - especially since airlines have been making great efforts to shift blame over small seats from themselves onto fat people.

[jennyaxe.livejournal.com]

Body dysphoria and actual size are two different things.

Very true - but then as pleonastic says, it's hard to argue with how people view themselves... But I too get irritated when people get into the whine competition about "oh, look, I've gained at least fifty grams this weekend, I'm SOO fat!".

But there's another thing that's been getting to me when reading your posts. What irks me isn't "anything non-emaciated is fat", it's "fat equals ugly". Because it doesn't. The whine competition seems to me as begging for reassurance, wanting to be told that you're not uglyl. (Or, of course, it's used to put down any woman who's less thin than the speaker...)

I wish we could get rid of the whole beauty having an inverse relationship to bodyweight thing. They're not related at all. IMAO, olf course.

[firecat]

This is the first time anyone's told me that my posts in general come across as "whining" about "fat equals ugly." Could you give me examples? I'm curious.

[jennyaxe.livejournal.com]

No, because that's not at all what I meant.

The whining I meant was the one I hear from people complaining about having gained 50 grams on their skinny frames during the weekend.

Your posts do not at all come across that way and I'm sorry I expressed myself so badly that you thought that's what I meant.

What I do see in your posts is things I hadn't thougth of before. I'm of a size most people consider overweight. I personally don't. But I'm heartily tired of getting people telling me that there's this cool diet that really works, that "oh, haven't you gained a little lately? poor you" and so on.
I am irritated by people finding it necessary to condole me on being somewhat larger than the cultural norm for women. I don't want to be told that my weight means I'm not beautiful. I don't want anyone to be told that. I think it's wrong both in a logical and a moral sense (if that made any sense - it's still 6.40 am here...)

I remember when a woman I loved during a quarrel told me that I kept putting her down because of her weight - she said "I'm not a perfect size 12 like you are and you keep putting me down because of that". The thing is, I wasn't. I found her beautiful and I wanted to be as like her as possible. She never was able to accept that because she'd been taught all her life that her weight made her ugly. Ironically, she was then about the same size that I'm now. And I refuse to be persuaded that I'm ugly. So there.

[firecat]

Thanks for explaining. My brain was inside out this morning.

A fat organization in Seattle sells a button that says "How dare you presume I'd rather be thin?" Sounds like there also ought to be a button that says "How dare you presume that I think my size is ugly?"

I'm always glad to hear of someone who has managed not to be enculturated with "larger than [single digit clothing size] equals ugly/too big/to be pitied" etc.

[bcholmes.livejournal.com]

I echo the comment that the article doesn't sit well with me. I think that there is a way to say, "here are some of the concerns that people might want to bear in mind relating to fat folk" and this, to me, says, "when you're around fat people, you must do these things or else you're unevolved."

[firecat]

I didn't read the article as bossy in the same way other commenters did, but I can see how it could come across that way.

(Preaching to the choir, I suspect) It's legitimate to feel anger when you're part of a group that's systematically misunderstood and mistreated, but expressing that anger toward people one wants to be allies is problematic.

[epi-lj.livejournal.com]

On walking, I often walk in front of people or walk faster than other people without noticing. I do try to slow down when I can. However, one thing that a lot of people aren't aware of is that while for some people, as you say, walking faster is painful, for a lot of people walking slower is painful. I don't mean "psychologically uncomfortable" -- I mean that strolling or walking slowly instead of walking at their natural state causes physical pain for them. So when some people walk fast it may not necessarily be them being inconsiderate of your pain so much as them trying to avoid their own pain.

[karenkay.livejournal.com]

Can you explain this some more? How does it cause physical pain?

[epi-lj.livejournal.com]

It's a back pain thing. I suspect that below a certain walking speed, a lot more pressure is being placed on the spine by being upright and stationary (similar to having to stand still for a long time) that isn't placed on the spine in a rolling forward motion. I know that I get it, but not as badly as one of my partners does. I'm particularly sensitive to it right now because she was just up visiting, and many times when I thought we were taking a nice romantic stroll and I'd just be thinking, "Wow, I could do this all day," she'd be hitting her, "If we could just WALK instead of STROLL maybe my life wouldn't be a living hell right now," point.

[firecat]

Walking slowly is sometimes painful for the OH, yeah.

I don't assume walking companions are being inconsiderate of my pain when they walk faster than me - "inconsiderate" implies "they should know better but they don't give a shit."

But anyway, in the case where a walking companion finds it difficult to walk at my pace, my preference is that they say something rather than speeding up slightly. Since I won't say something myself, and I know it might be uncomfortable to talk about, it's not "fair" of me to have this preference, and therefore it's not something I expect. But I still do have the preference.

(Also, I suppose it bears mentioning that the preference doesn't apply to hiking, just to walking on a sidewalk in an urban/suburban area.)

[leback.livejournal.com]

One small grumble: the article points out that "smooshing fatties in the backseat with a slew of other people is not going to be comfortable for anyone." Later it says not to pressure a fat person to take shotgun if they don't want it. Should the slew of other people whose comfort is also at stake not get a vote as to whom they're smooshed into the backseat with?

I'm also somewhat distressed by "body dysphoria and actual size are two different things." I live in a culture where, as someone pointed out above, fatness is attributed to size-8 actresses. As a size 12, I do meet that definition of fatness, so a self-image in accordance with that *is* a matter of actual size--and it's not necessarily body dysphoria; it may simply be "I'm fat and I'm fine with that." I much prefer your point, that if being fat means the same thing as being not-skinny, there's no available label for the state of being significantly fatter than not-skinny. That's been more or less the reason that I've stopped applying "fat" to myself--not that I previously wasn't basing the assessment on my actual size, but that it seems useful to favor narrower definitions of the term than those which include said size.

Those issues notwithstanding, I think it's a useful article. Thanks!

[firecat]

The article really doesn't consider the needs or wants of anyone but a fat person.

I personally think it's legitimate to write an article about "here's how a fat person would like to be treated" rather than an article about "here's how to negotiate the logistics of a car ride considering the needs of a fat person and also a bunch of other competing needs."

But maybe some kind of disclaimer about how other people have needs too would have helped the article come across better.

I agree with your body dysphoria comment.

[leback.livejournal.com]

Good point--and if I read it as "Here's how a fat person would like to be treated," I have no problem there. I think the issue for me was that I read the label "etiquette" and the use of the imperative mood as "Here's how you must treat a fat person, or you are a boob." (For instance, that's very much the sense I get from "Obey fat etiquette and give fatties some space!") I think a lot of the comments people have been making reflect the fact that as "do this" (not just "consider this") imperatives, some of these may go too far.

[the-tricker.livejournal.com]

Ok, my friend Jenn does that to me and other friends who are heavier. I mean call herself fat when she's skinny. It makes me want to poke her stupid eyes out. xD Seriously though, it does make me feel like a huge elephant or something. I think I have been sharp and intolerant of such responses before, but I tend to blurt things out without much tact, so yeah. But I really like this entry. You have no idea how much this has been done to me by Jenn alone.

Apparently, she has no fat etiquette. Ok, she doesn't have ANY etiquette for anyone but herself but that's beside the point. I commented to praise your response! Good stuff!

[the-tricker.livejournal.com]

On the flip side, however, I wouldn't want to be treated all "special" what with the booth thing and the riding shotgun---I think personally that would make me quite uncomfortable.

I'm short though, so I walk slower. Doesnt matter what weight i'm at, I don't want to walk like i'm in a huge rush! I hate it when people use their height./lesser weight to that advantage. (gabe i'm talking to you!!!)