firecat

Via

ona_tangent, Fat Girl Break Down's "Fat Etiquette Tips For The Non Fat" is an interesting list of ways anyone can be an ally to fat people - mostly suggestions for keeping in mind the ways a fat person might find some environments too small/crowded. It's written in a direct, demanding style that I don't tend to use, but otherwise I agree with a lot of what it says.

Fat Girl Break Down also has a LiveJournal at

fgbd. Don't click the website link on their userinfo, though; it's been eaten by a porn site.

I find these particularly interesting (emphasis in the original):

When going to a restaurant with a fat person, allow the fat person to choose where you are seated. Consider the fact that your fat pal may not fit into a booth, and may not feel comfortable sitting at a table with their back facing the rest of the restaurant.

(I personally don't mind sitting with my back to the rest of the restaurant. But when sitting at a four-person table against a wall, I like to sit on the outside, not the inside where I might crowd the person next to me or where other people would have to get up to let me out if I need to go to the bathroom.)

Don't make fat jokes around fat people. Don't make fat jokes PERIOD. If someone makes a fat joke around you, tell them they are being immature and stupid.

I personally don't particularly want people to be called immature and stupid; I'd rather they were just educated that fat jokes - the kind that rely on scorn, disgust, humiliation, or othering - are not OK. But I especially appreciate the part about speaking up against fat bigotry in other people. I don't think people are obligated to do this, but I appreciate it because I'm not good at it. Actually, I'll add that I appreciate the most people who speak up against fat bigotry when I am not around. If I'm around I feel like they're pointing at me and saying "Don't do it because can't you see this fat person is here?" I'd rather that such jokes were considered questionable even in entirely non fat company.

Don't say you're fat if you aren't fat. Don't whine to your fat friends about your gut that's barely visible. Don't try to compare being teased for being "too skinny" to the constant degradation and oppression of fatfolk. If you don't read as "fat" to people who see you, don't call yourself "fat." Body dysphoria and actual size are two different things.

I don't personally mind comparisons between the harrassment that fat women receive and the harrassment that non fat women receive (although I prefer it when the comparison isn't made with the goal of saying "I'm more harrassed than you"). But I REALLY like the statement "Body dysphoria and actual size are two different things." I'll just go on the record here as saying that a bunch of times when a thin woman has talked to me about how fat she is, I've wanted to say something like that. I generally haven't because it would be rude, but I've wanted to.

(Note: I don't recall anyone on my flist saying something like this to me, so I'm not indirectly communicating to anyone here. And writing it in your journal isn't the same as saying it to me.)

I don't mean that only people my size "get" to call ourselves fat, but when people who look pretty small to me talk about feeling so fat, I feel like a Nameless Thing ("if they are fat, and my body is so much bigger than theirs, then there is no name for what I am").

***

While I'm on the subject of etiquette - this is part fat etiquette, because it applies to some other fat people, but mostly Stef etiquette - I appreciate it when people keep in mind that I usually don't comfortably walk fast. I can walk several miles, but it's at a pace that's slower than what seems to be a "normal" pace. When I'm walking with other people, I appreciate it if at least one person walks at my pace rather than everyone's going on ahead and leaving me alone.

I also appreciate it when walking with one person if they match my pace rather than walking a half step ahead of me, which I experience as pressure to walk faster - and then I do, and it's painful.

Note that I almost never ask for these things at the time. Which is a fault in me, but it's not one I am planning to work on changing any time soon.

Flat | Top-Level Comments Only

From:

pir-anha.livejournal.com

oh, forgot -- i consider that walking bit basic etiquette no matter whether somebody is fat or not; one might be a slow walker for all sorts of reasons, and i hate hate hate people who rush ahead. makes me feel like i am their dog. if i ever do that with you and don't notice, do tell me!

From:

beaq.livejournal.com

Yeh.

From:

bcholmes.livejournal.com

I'm irresistably moved to quote a line that

wild_irises used at Wiscon, which is this: "a lot of people talk about manners as if they were a part of concensus reality, and I know from personal experience that they are not."

More and more, I think that phrases like "basic etiquette" and "manners" are a tool that people use to say, "I don't like what you're doing and that makes you inferior."

From:

therealjae.livejournal.com

Ooh. I like that quote.

-J

From:

pir-anha.livejournal.com

*raises eyebrows*. spiffy snipe.

From:

firecat

I've seen such phrases used that way, yeah. And that's not polite, dammit! :-) (Seriously, every modern etiquette advice book or column I've read stresses that laying guilt trips on other people or behaving as if they are inferior isn't proper.)

When I use "etiquette," I'm likely to mean "A model of how to behave toward X set of people that I believe X is likely to find considerate and that I find myself capable of doing." Smaller subsets of X inherit the default etiquette for the larger set X, but the defaults can be overridden. When talking about an individual, etiquette would be more or less in the same range as "that person's needs / wants / preferences."

My model isn't likely to be exactly the same as other people's. And the map isn't the territory.

I think I'm not taking the original article's use of "etiquette" as synonymous with "rule" or with "You should know this, you rube" because of the way I assume that defaults can be overridden.

From:

epi-lj.livejournal.com

IME, most dogs rush ahead and their owners trail behind, rather than vice versa.

I walk ahead of people often without noticing, but do try to slow down when I notice. I do understand how frustrating it can be to be constantly trying to catch up, both from trips with my Dad as a kid and from cycling with faster riders. However, it's worth noting that in some cases, walking slower or walking as slow as is required may be physically painful or cause body issues for the faster walker, so it's not a clear case of "needs trump preferences". There are many cases where I've spent time walking with people who walk *MUCH* slower than I, and slowed down to accomodate them only to find that after a little while I could not walk because of the pain and had back problems for days thereafter.

It's also worth noting that the person is not making you feel like you're their dog. Your own perception of the situation is making you feel like you're their dog. When people cycle faster than I do and I get upset by that, it's my own competetiveness, perception of my ability level and a host of other things that are causing my issues, not that they ride fast. Often the answer is not that they need to slow down for me, but that I have to learn to let go of my anger about it or my need to compete or keep up and just let them go on ahead, perhaps setting a meeting place or something like that. In some circumstances, of course, this doesn't work out, but in situations where it does, it's nice if everybody accomodates everybody rather than one person accomodating another without that going both ways.

From:

pir-anha.livejournal.com

It's also worth noting that the person is not making you feel like you're their dog.

it might've been worth noting had i actually said that. what i did in fact say was "makes me feel"; the referent being the act of walking faster than i, not the person. i am well aware that those are my own feelings. and no, it's not about competition at all.