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firecatI distrust most conversations about who gets to be in [whatever] camp and who doesn't, and what's the "real" way of doing something and what isn't. Mostly I think they cause more harm than good. So I feel uncomfortable with the comments I'm going to make, but I'm going to make them anyway.
http://www.ficklefingeroffat.com/ is a new blog by a person who was a famous spokesperson for fat acceptance. The person is now blogging about her attempts to lose weight. This has caused some controversy at![[livejournal.com profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/external/lj-syndicated.gif)
shapelyprose and among some other fat-acceptance bloggers.
There are various takes on the subject, and I'm not going to list them all here. I'm going to discuss just one of them that came up in a friend's locked post. It was said that size-acceptance is about "live and let live," and suggested that it was hypocritical for size-acceptance advocates to criticize "a personal decision."
My comment was:therotund put it better here (emphasis mine):
http://www.ficklefingeroffat.com/ is a new blog by a person who was a famous spokesperson for fat acceptance. The person is now blogging about her attempts to lose weight. This has caused some controversy at
shapelyprose and among some other fat-acceptance bloggers. There are various takes on the subject, and I'm not going to list them all here. I'm going to discuss just one of them that came up in a friend's locked post. It was said that size-acceptance is about "live and let live," and suggested that it was hypocritical for size-acceptance advocates to criticize "a personal decision."
My comment was:
Thing is, it's not just "a personal decision" when it's undertaken in a public blog by a famous spokesperson for fat-acceptance.
The person has every right to do what they are doing, but writing a blog about their deliberate weight loss attempts discredits them as a spokesperson for fat-acceptance, in my mind.
therotund put it better here (emphasis mine): A lot of the comments I have seen, both here and at Shapely Prose, seem to want to define Fat Activism as doing whatever the hell you want to do with your body. But that isn’t Fat Activism. That is body autonomy, which is a component of Fat Activism.and
Does this mean [people who are dieting] cannot work toward changing social perceptions of fat people? No. But if you are a fat person who is publicly dieting, that is going to inform your message and reinforce the idea that fat people can and should lose weight by just trying hard enough. Does this mean you cannot appreciate and love other fat people? No. But it does send a message of “fat is okay for you but not for me” which kind of undermines the message of acceptance.
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no subject
Date: 7 Sep 2007 10:02 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 7 Sep 2007 10:36 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 7 Sep 2007 10:02 pm (UTC)i think people should be happy in their bodies, and should work to get that way. i think it's even okay to work to get that way by eating the food that makes you feel good (i.e. not high sugar foods which are apparently a problem with pcos), and by exercising more.
i just think that adding on "and trying to lose weight" is a good way to make yourself crazy. i mean, the two sets of behaviors can be *identical*. weight change can happen from both. but in one case you're doing things to do them, and in the other, you're doing them because fat is bad, your body is bad. and that's just poisonous.
no subject
Date: 7 Sep 2007 10:32 pm (UTC)I also know four women who have had gastric bypass surgery and one who's going to, and I just want to scream every time one of them says something like, "I was so sick and in so much pain, and I almost died from the infection, and I'd do it again in a heartbeat because it was the only way I could lose weight."
And there were several years when I didn't eat sugar at all, even fresh fruit, because any kind of sugar reacted really badly with my antidepressant and made me terribly sick and caused lots of pain. And hearing my doctor say things like, "You've lost weight! Good for you!" was really unhelpful.
And I want to start exercising regularly again, but I'm pretty convinced that it has to be yoga, because in 40 years yoga is the only form of exercise I've found that doesn't fuck with my head and make me crazy in bad and ugly ways. Well, okay, that and mall-walking, but even there I have to be careful (mentally and emotionally, I mean).
I'm rambling here, aren't I. Weight and size and fat and diet and nutrition and exercise and body image are so goddamn fraught.
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Date: 8 Sep 2007 12:12 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 9 Sep 2007 01:52 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 7 Sep 2007 10:33 pm (UTC)yes, and whether or not weight loss occurs, the two sets of behaviors can be beneficial to health. and i think it's critical for health to be decoupled from fat. so i'm disappointed that someone i used to consider a savvy fat activist doesn't seem to get this.
i didn't realize until i read the blog that she previously didn't have any fat-correlated health problems. i do know that a lot of fat people have a big crisis of confidence when they first get a fat-correlated health problem, but it's been so long since that happened to me that i've forgotten what it feels like. so i'm being uncompassionate and lacking in imagination. but the message i'm taking home is 'now that i'm like you (fat and with fat-correlated health problems), there's something terribly wrong with me that i must fix.' and i take it personally and it hurts.
An odd thought
Date: 7 Sep 2007 11:00 pm (UTC)Specifically in reference to:
'now that i'm like you (fat and with fat-correlated health problems), there's something terribly wrong with me that i must fix.'
IIRC, one of the health problems mentioned was joint and soft-tissue pain in the legs. Which is, I'm afraid, just a *big* person's problem, and the issue of stress on joints is a matter of *mass* above them, whether it's fat, muscle, or people who've elected to sew lead to their bodies. ;)
I understand how it can be disturbing, to hear that from a fat activist; I also know that because of the way I'm built I'm always going to have joint issues (I've got the classic "linebacker gone to potbelly" build, and if I lost fat through exercise it would very likely come back as just more muscle mass) The same is true of a lot of bears I know -- we're fat, but we're also just *big*, and the only solution to the problems of being *big* in those areas is losing mass or being very careful with our knees. (I got lucky -- my sport was soccer, and so I have a lot of musculature built up to support the rest of my weight. I've known some people who had the classic "triangle" build, with fairly thin legs, who had *real* problems with their joints from an early age.)
I've chosen to take the route of "watch where I put my feet and hope I don't slip"; but I'm not sure I'll stay on that route when I reach the "have trouble with my knees bending enough to get me out of chairs comfortably" or the "torn ligaments due to slipping on the stairs" stage.
What we do for our health at any given moment is going to be just such a tradeoff with other things we may want -- and I don't think it's a bad thing to decide, at some point, that it's worth a change to avoid a consequence. One can argue whether the change is the best way to do so, or even whether the consequence is a real one, but the principle remains the same.
Re: An odd thought
Date: 7 Sep 2007 11:42 pm (UTC)I see what you're saying, and I don't entirely agree with that statement for various reasons. It implies if you're big you will have knee pain. But I think knee pain a combination of genetic luck, muscle strength (as you point out), and how the joints are used.
I know lots of heavy people who don't have knee pain and I know lots of light people who do have it. I agree that being heavy will often contribute if a person is prone to it or has already been injured, but I also know people who've gone from being heavy to being light and their knee pain didn't go away, or got worse.
I also know that knee pain or the risk of future knee pain is frequently given as a reason for big people to get smaller. But I don't usually see it given as a reason for people to avoid athletic activities even if their games of choice involve movements likely to cause knee injury. I think there's something to ponder in that.
The health problem I was thinking of when I wrote the previous post was high blood pressure. In fat people high blood pressure is actually far less dangerous than in thin people, according to some studies.
I don't think it's a bad thing to decide, at some point, that it's worth a change to avoid a consequence.
Not in the abstract. But what change, and whether the change really does what it is purported to do, and whether the consequence really is what it's purported to be, and whether one can really know those things in a society that ties the change in question up with a whole lot of morality issues - those are really big questions here.
Re: An odd thought
Date: 8 Sep 2007 07:27 am (UTC)So, yeah. I have never believed that knee pain is all, or even mostly, or even partially, about one's weight/size.
Re: An odd thought
Date: 8 Sep 2007 10:13 am (UTC)Oh, and I'm fat. Incidentally, when I stopped eating gluten I temporarily gained about twenty pounds and then lost it again (without trying either way), and the knee pain lessened while I was gaining. The weight was not the cause of the pain. My immune system attacking my joints in response to gluten was the cause of the pain.
Re: An odd thought
Date: 9 Sep 2007 01:59 am (UTC)Re: An odd thought
Date: 9 Sep 2007 02:05 am (UTC)Telephone: 415-699-5797
Email: CinderErn@aol.com
http://www.cinderernst.com/index.html
Re: An odd thought
Date: 8 Sep 2007 07:27 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 8 Sep 2007 12:45 pm (UTC)It is very sad to me that a longtime fat acceptance advocate can't see that.
-J
no subject
Date: 8 Sep 2007 12:59 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 8 Sep 2007 02:44 am (UTC)Yes, I see what you mean.
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Date: 8 Sep 2007 05:24 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 8 Sep 2007 02:35 am (UTC)People don't go to great efforts to stop being things that they think there's nothing wrong with. What the hell would be the point?
the point is personal
Date: 8 Sep 2007 06:15 pm (UTC)p.s. please nobody argue with me that it's not the weight. trust that i've heard it all, and that i know myself better than you. i don't feel "uncomfortable in my skin" (well, i do, but that's because i have gender dysphoria *wry grin*; the weight isn't the issue).
that said, i don't think somebody who is trying to lose weight by dieting can remain a very public spokesperson for fat acceptance. not in this climate. it's gonna feel like a betrayal. i don't even know who it is, but man, i feel sorry for the crap she's gonna get.
no subject
Date: 9 Sep 2007 01:54 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 8 Sep 2007 03:20 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 8 Sep 2007 07:23 am (UTC)So, her explanation of why is perfectly reasonable, in the sense that she gives a nod at the end to its irrational, I feel uncomfortable in my skin nature. Gaining weight screws with people's self image in a way that losing weight doesn't quite do (though the latter is also weird when it sneaks up on you). I started that same project at the same time as I joined the movement, and I think for a lot of us, the "get healthier / please let me lose weight" thing is a necessary step to resituating us in our bodies. Yes, it's problematic from a public figure in the movement - but if the most public figures are completely inaccessible to the rest of the struggling-with-weight-and-image people, they also make the movement inaccessible.
The comments, however, make me cry. They're. Ugh. They're just misinformed and "give the movement the finger" and upsetting. I'd hate to be in a position where the people who "agreed" with me said so many things I disagree with.
no subject
Date: 8 Sep 2007 03:36 pm (UTC)That's a big part of why I'm disappointed, actually - I guess I incorrectly thought that most serious fat-acceptance advocates understood that the mapping of "I'm uncomfortable in my skin" to "I should lose weight" (as opposed to "I want to work toward enjoying movement more etc.") is a product of a society that works hard to blame everything on being fat.
I guess I'm feeling afraid that I've been naive and that no one but me is actually paying attention to the "don't focus on weight loss" message of fat-acceptance if they feel the slightest bit uncomfortable about their size.
I haven't read any of the comments on her blog. I'm sorry but unfortunately not surprised that they are so negative.
no subject
Date: 8 Sep 2007 12:09 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 8 Sep 2007 03:25 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 8 Sep 2007 07:12 pm (UTC)Maybe this would be impossible. Maybe you can't lose a significant amount of weight unless you're convinced that you are going to feel better for it. Could a skeptical dieter stick with it long enough to lose much weight? I'd love to see a skeptics diet club, where instead of congratulating the participants on weight loss, you asked them how they really felt about it.
no subject
Date: 9 Sep 2007 02:37 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 9 Sep 2007 05:01 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 9 Sep 2007 05:35 pm (UTC)Ditto. Although I thought (when I weighed 160) that I still needed to lose 50 pounds. When my mom said no, I looked fine, I was flabbergasted (since the last time I had weighed around 160, in my teens, she had told me I looked six months pregnant).
i am not exactly a fat activist, but...
Date: 9 Sep 2007 06:03 am (UTC)it did "work" -- of course it didn't all work for the reasons advertised, and it didn't stick, but i lost 50+ lbs without much effort (that was a first; i had low-fat dieted once before many years ago and it had been onerous, and i said "never again"). i didn't become obsessed, i became more conscious of what i was putting into my mouth and what it was made up of (contrary to what they said about "don't count", i kept a food log because i wanted to track my intake to see whether their claims had validity).
it was interesting. i did blood tests before and after. it didn't improve my health much per se, but i felt better (more energetic, less "weighed down"), and because i felt more energetic, i was more physically active, which in the long run would undoubtedly improve my health. my cholesterol levels improved despite all the anti-atkins fear-mongering about oh noes, all that fat you're eating! i learned that i am addicted to carbs, and that the amount of them i consume isn't good for me; it contributes to me feeling sluggish and not wanting to move much, which is a vicious cycle.
i avoided societal approval as much as possible. never could bear to hang out in any of the atkins dieting forums, *shudder*. i didn't want the approval of people who were obsessed with not wanting to be fat; i was perfectly happy being fat.
then i stopped because i had a major depressive episode and it got too difficult to stay away from the carbs which are my soul food. i put almost all the weight back on. i expected that, and it wasn't a big deal; i am fortunate in that my birth family comes from sturdy peasant stock and i never got anti-fat sermons while growing up, and am relatively immune to society's fucked-up messages about it.
i really liked how i felt minus that weight and with more energy though, ergo i was a little happier than i am now. just that this isn't the right way for me to get there. i did learn a fair amount about better food choices i can make and any day now (ha!) i'm going to make more of an effort to do that -- the reason i didn't put _all_ the weight back on is that i stuck with some of the better food choices and the idea of more and smaller portions.
and apropos nothing i like your LJ handle. :)
Re: i am not exactly a fat activist, but...
Date: 9 Sep 2007 05:07 pm (UTC)One of the things I'm thinking of when I say societal approval is how things go at the doctor's office. One of the most difficult things about being fat is going to the doctor and getting a good dose of fat-is-unhealthy propoganda.
Re: i am not exactly a fat activist, but...
Date: 9 Sep 2007 07:59 pm (UTC)i strongly suspect that it wouldn't have worked in the long run either though, because of the extremely low carb level even on their maintenance plan. eating that few carbs is just not "natural" for me (maybe it could become so, but i don't know how many years i'd have to practice to make that a habit). i do know two people who have kept it up for >5 years now, so it's possible for some.
yeah, doctor's visits can be difficult. mine, whom i visit as rarely as possible, always gives me that spiel, and i look sternly at him and say "not this again, you know it only has the effect that i don't want to see you real soon again", and then he laughs -- he's as accepting as he can be of me doing what i want. it's not the kind of r'ship i _want_ with my doctor, but eh; i deal, i have a thick skin. he's retiring and i might put some effort into picking a new one. then again, i might just pick his replacement cause their office is so close. i am a bad, bad health care consumer.
Re: i am not exactly a fat activist, but...
Date: 9 Sep 2007 10:10 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 8 Sep 2007 11:10 pm (UTC)To use a religious metaphor, if I was a leader of a Wiccan/Muslim acceptance group that encouraged tolerance for Wiccian/Muslims and I had a crisis of faith and was not sure anymore if the Wiccian/Muslim beliefs were valid, this would not change my feelings for Wiccian/Muslim acceptance and tolerance.
On the other hand if I was a Wiccian/Muslim evangelist and had the same crisis of faith, it would be hypocritical for me to keep proselytizing Wiccian/Muslim beliefs when I no longer held them myself.
Would the other Wiccian/Muslims feel betrayed? Perhaps, but that is the price we pay for putting faith in leaders.
no subject
Date: 9 Sep 2007 02:00 am (UTC)In fat-acceptance/fat-activism, things might be a bit more complicated when you get to the evangelist, because the issues of "faith" are not really binary.
no subject
Date: 10 Sep 2007 02:03 pm (UTC)Your logic seems to be that if you are a Fat Activist, you are no longer allowed to practice body autonomy for fear of losing your activist credentials.
There is a difference between "I'd like to lose some weight to lower my risk of diabetes" and "I'd like to lose all my fat so that I will be beautiful and people will love me and I'll have a good life."
no subject
Date: 10 Sep 2007 06:48 pm (UTC)You aren't "allowed"? Oh please. No one is coming to any blogger's house with handcuffs. I also see plenty of people in this larger discussion who think weight loss blogging is completely in line with being a fat activist, so it's apparent that a "fat activist weight loss blogger" will continue to have plenty of fans.
But as far as I am concerned, a fat activist who blogs about weight loss has lost credibility, at least for the important component of fat activism that says "weight is is the wrong thing to focus on."
There is a difference between "I'd like to lose some weight to lower my risk of diabetes" and "I'd like to lose all my fat so that I will be beautiful and people will love me and I'll have a good life."
Sure, but in these senses there is no difference: (1) It matters not at all whether a person would "like" to lose weight. In this society, almost everyone would at some point "like" to lose weight. It matters what you *do*. (2) If you study the research, you learn that your risk of diabetes depends a lot more on genetics and exercise habits than on whether you try to lose weight. (I even know people who got diabetes after they lost weight, because losing weight can be stressful on the body, and stress increases your risk of developing diabetes, if you are genetically prone to it.) If you observe life, you understand that being thin doesn't guarantee being beautiful, loved, and having a good life.
no subject
Date: 10 Sep 2007 10:15 pm (UTC)Hmmm. I hear what you're saying, but I think that people can honestly believe that fat is ok for others but not themselves while still being generally accepting. I am perfectly happy for any other human being on the planet to be whatever size or shape is right for them. At the same time, I reject the idea that anyone other than me has the right to say what size or shape I should be. The two things do go together perfectly well in my head:
* Other people should be the size&shape that is right for them - I have no right to say what that is.
* I should be the size&shape that is right for me - no one else has the right to say what that is.
I do understand that it feels like a sort of betrayal for someone who was previously a very active Fat Activist to now be writing about attempting to lose weight, though :/
no subject
Date: 10 Sep 2007 10:42 pm (UTC)My problem is this. 99.98% of the people who publicly state that they are pursuing size change for themselves (whether or not they have different size standards for themselves than for others) are saying "I am trying to get smaller." Every individual person who says/does that has every right to do so. But when there are thousands of people doing weight-loss blogs, and virtually no one doing weight-gain blogs, and very few people doing weight-doesn't-matter blogs, the overall message I get (and I don't think I'm alone here) is: "putting effort into getting smaller is really important in this society."
Now add in all the people who say outright fat-hating things. The overall message I get is "If you are fat, then maybe you have a right to exist if you are trying to get smaller. But otherwise you should not exist."
Feminists talk about how sexual harrassment is multiply problematic if there's a whole lot of it and not enough support for people who are emotionally affected by it. Let's say I go to a bar and one man hits on me, one man calls me a bitch, and a bunch of other people treat me with liking and respect. That's overall a positive experience. But if 1,000 men hit on me and 1,000 men call me a bitch, and two people treat me with liking and respect, I feel overwhelmed and threatened.
Likewise, if one person says "I'm trying to get smaller," I might regard it as an interesting experiment or a curious hobby. If 1,000 people say "I'm trying to get smaller," and 1,000 people say "Big people are disgusting and unhealthy," I feel threatened.
no subject
Date: 19 Sep 2007 09:06 pm (UTC)But I'm always afraid that it will come across as a sort of smug "Oh it was nothing really, I'm just NATURALLY thin / a good cook / other difficult-and-coveted-skill," if you see what I mean?
no subject
Date: 19 Sep 2007 10:15 pm (UTC)